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Saturday, January 27, 2018

mtDNAwiki on "Steppe folk" mtDNA and Indo-Iranian origins


Fascinating stuff from Samuel at mtDNAwiki. Emphasis is mine:

Steppe folk were people who resided in what are today Southern Russia and Eastern Ukraine between 6,000 and 4,000 years ago. They were very different from the Anatolian farmers I discussed earlier.

Ancient DNA shows that, between 3000 and 2000 BC, Steppe folk migrated en masse into Northern Europe, Central Asia and Siberia. Shortly afterwards, Steppe folk settled in South Europe, South Asia (India, Afghanistan, etc.), and Iran.

They contributed huge chunks of ancestry to countless modern ethnic groups. Modern-day Europeans are for the most part a two-way mixture between Steppe folk and European Neolithic farmers (who were mostly of Anatolian origin).

...

As much as 33% of Tajik mtDNA really does derive from Eneolithic/Bronze Age Eastern Europe. No doubt about it. Yes, Tajiks are an exception, because they have a lot more Steppe mtDNA than essentially all other South Central Asians. However, significant frequencies of Steppe mtDNA exist in every population in this region. For example, the mtDNA in the Kalasha, a small ethnic group from the Hindu Kush, is mostly made up of founder effects involving Steppe mt-HGs U4a1, U4b1a4, U2e1h, and J2b1a. Each of these haplogroups has been found in remains from Eneolithic/Bronze Age Eastern Europe.

Typical European haplogroups such as U5a1a1, H2a1, T1a1, H5a1, H6a1, J1b1a1, J2b1a, H7b, etc. consistently pop up in every South Central Asian population. Realistically, none of these haplogroups are more than 10,000 years old. Indeed, all of them are likely to be less than 7,000 years old. The European-related mtDNA in South Central Asia isn’t derived from distant, Paleolithic shared ancestry between Europeans and Asians. It’s recent stuff from the Steppe.

For over a decade Y-haplogroup R1a-M417 perplexed many geneticists because it was the most common Y-haplogroup in two geographically very distant peoples; Balto-Slavs of Eastern Europe and Indo-Aryans of South Asia. But thanks to ancient DNA, it has now been confirmed that R1a-M417 is an European Steppe lineage which expanded both west and east from the Pontic-Caspian Steppe between 4,600 and 3,500 years ago.

Interestingly, I’ve found mtDNA haplogroups which correlate very well with R1a-M417; meaning that they either exist in South Asians & Eastern Europeans, or in South Asians & ancient Central and Eastern Europeans rich in R1a-M417, such as the Corded Ware and Srubnaya peoples.

J1c1b1a: Russia, Ukraine, Hungary, Romania, Denmark, UK, Spain, Tajik, India. Srubnaya (R1a-Z93), Corded Ware (R1a-M417).
H2a1a: Russia, Hungary=2, Finland, Britain, Ireland, France, Pathan, Tajik=16, Turkey, Siberia. Eneolithic Ukraine (R1a-M417), Bronze age Scotland, Unetice.
H5e1: Russia=2, Hungary, Greece, Tajik=3.
T1a1b: Russia=4, Poland=3, Hungary=2, Iran=2, Turkey, Tajik=4, India. Bronze age Latvia, Sycthian=2.
N1a1a1a1: Estonia=3, Finland=2, Italy, Turkmen, India=2. Sintashta, Sycthian, Sarmatian.
K2a5: Estonia, Ireland, Iran, Sindhi, Pathan, India. Corded Ware Germany, Corded Ware Sweden.
U4b2: Russia, Ukraine, Sweden, Spain, Burosho, Tajik, India.
U4b1a4: Kalash, Tajik, Iran, Siberia=3. Catacomb, Sycthian.
U2e1h: Kalash=3, Tajik=8, Siberia, Italy. Sintashta, Potapovka

The most important mt-HGs here are U2e1h, H2a1a, U4b1a4, T1a1b, and N1a1a1a1. They directly link modern Indo-Iranian speakers in Asia with Eneolithic/Bronze age Eastern Europeans generally considered by historical linguists and archaeologists to be Proto-Indo-European- or Proto-Indo-Iranian-speakers (i.e. Sintashta and Potapovka).

When I put all of this data together, and saw the undeniable links between modern-day Indo-Iranian speakers and Eneolithic/Bronze Age Eastern Europeans, I was amazed. The results confirmed to me, beyond any doubt, that the ancient migrations from the western Steppe deep into Asia long hypothesized by historical linguists and archaeologists did happen. Indo-Iranian languages really did originate in Eastern Europe, probably in what is now Ukraine, then took the long journey all the way to the Indian Subcontinent.

Case in point: ancient DNA sample I6561. That’s his lab ID, but he’s a man who died in what is now Ukraine ~5,500 years ago. He belonged to Y-HG R1a-M417 and mt-HG H2a1a. Today H2a1a is most common in the Tajik people of South Central Asia. The most common Y-HG in Tajiks, and many of their neighbors, such as Pashtuns, Kalasha, northern Indians, etc. is R1a-M417.

All of the evidence suggests that Mr. I6561 belonged to a PIE community whose descendants would go on to settle lands that stretch all the way from modern-day Norway to India. His people are important founders of countless modern ethnic groups; Russians, Czechs, Tajiks, Pashtuns, Indians, and so on. Oh yeah, and also the ancient Scythians, who dominated much of Asia around 500 BC, derived directly from his people. Pretty amazing.

...

It’s been known for a while, via archaeological data, that Steppe folk traded with these farmers. But now, thanks to ancient DNA, it’s clear that they exchanged more than just goods. Enneolithic and Bronze Age genomes from what are now Ukraine, Romania, and Bulgaria show that the Steppe and farmer folks began mixing by at least 4400 BC.

Hence, when Steppe folk expanded both west and east, they took with them at least a little Anatolian admixture. This is also true for the Steppe folk who went to South Asia. Several of the mt-HGs that I labeled “Steppe” are in fact Anatolian mt-HGs that the Steppe folk acquired through admixture with farmer peoples before their mass migrations. These include mt-HGs H1b1, H5a1, H7b, J1c1b1a, J2b1a, N1a1a1a1, K1b1a1, HV6, and HV9.

It’s often said, in scientific literature as well as on various genetic blogs and forums, that the Steppe folk who moved into South Asia didn’t harbor any Anatolian ancestry. But my mtDNA data easily debunks this claim. South Asians do indeed carry some Anatolian-derived mtDNA which they, in all likelihood, acquired from their Steppe ancestors.

See also...

Another look at the genetic structure of Yamnaya

Ancient herders from the Pontic-Caspian steppe crashed into India: no ifs or buts

Descendants of ancient European (fair?) maidens in Central Asia's highlands

Late PIE ground zero now obvious; location of PIE homeland still uncertain, but...

250 comments:

«Oldest   ‹Older   201 – 250 of 250
Shahanshah of Persia said...

@Anthro Survey Also, if you can't take a joke don't resort to sneeringly including a personal insult in that comment of yours.

Samuel Andrews said...

@ak2014b,
"Or do you mean the coverage was inconsistent, being insufficient for some of the samples they used but sufficient for others?"

Yep, exactly. Some are mitogenomes, most are low coverage.

"So if you didn't use Palanichamy et al 2015, then, for comparing notes, what papers do you obtain your modern data from for South Asia and also South Central Asia? (For Iran, I still use Derenko et al 2013.)"

Various places. I found some them at a time I hadn't learned to reference stuff so for some of it I'd have to search hard to find the orignal study. Some of it is second hand data from Ian Logan's site.

I'll try to find the studied for you tomorrow. It's 2am where I am right now. You can take my word for it the Steppe presence in South Asian mtDNA is real.

It includes more than Tajik and Kalash. Almost half of the Indian mitogenomes sequenced by Palanichamy et al 2015 belong to Steppe and or European EEF haplogroups. Steppe mtDNA might be really low in most South asians but is nonetheless a very real phenoamon.

Kristiina said...

@Samuel " Almost half of the Indian mitogenomes sequenced by Palanichamy et al 2015 belong to Steppe and or European EEF haplogroups."

It is 40% only in the Punjab.
According to the paper
"Within India, the frequencies also vary widely in the various regions, for example, 40 % in the Punjab, 16 % in southern India and 7 % in eastern India."

Many west Eurasian haplotypes are old in Iran/Near East which is not EEF or steppe area.

For example:
"The most frequent west Eurasian haplogroup in India is U7 (~20 %). This haplogroup is thought to have originated about 16–22 kya in west Asia–Iran. ... average [age] of 5.7 kya"

"The autochthonous subhaplogroups HV14a1 and U1a1a4 uniquely found in contemporary Dravidian speakers share their ancestry primarily with the Near East-Iran populations. The coalescence times of HV14a1 and U1a1a4 were estimated to be ~10.5–17.9 kya."

"The subclades of other west Eurasian H (H2, H3, H5, H6, H7, H9, H13, H14 and H15), HV (HV2 and HV6), R0 (R0a2), V (V2a), N1 (N1a1a), W (W1, W3 and W4), and R (R2) lineages were observed frequently among the higher-ranked caste. As inferred from the phylogeny, these lineages were more diverse in west Asia, and these west Eurasian lineages in Indian populations were found to cluster with the populations from the Near East, the Caucasus, and central Asia"

Autosomally speaking, most west Eurasian mtDNAs seems to be CHG.

Davidski said...

@Kristiina

I don't think anyone ever claimed that U7 was a steppe lineage, since it's not present on the ancient steppe.

Clearly, it's a Caucaso-Caspian lineage.

supernord said...

@Rob
"Shishilna is wrong ?"

Yes. Shishlina to measure the reservoir effect in Khvalynsk, it amounted to 200, max 300 years, so 4300-3800 years there nothing may happen. I did not read any such statements from Shishlina, they are simply impossible - Shishlina 2013 "The offset is 220 14C yr."

4300-3800 years is time Dereivka culture, but not Sredniy Stog. Existing Dereivka culture & Khvalynsk culture in one time is impossible.

Kristiina said...

I checked the supplementary Excel file 439_2015_1547_MOESM1_ESM.xls

As for west Eurasian mtDNA, Upper Indo-European caste carries in particular haplotypes that are anchored in West Asia: 7% belongs to H/H2a1/H2a1a/H2b/H3g/H5a1/H6a1a/H7b/H9b/H13a1a/H13a2a/H14a/H14c and 4,75% to U7a3b1a/U7a4/U7a4a/U7a6/U7a7/U7b/U7c

The highest U2e/U2e1/U2e1a1/U2e1b/U2e3/U2e3b/U3/U3a/U3b/U3b3/U4/U4a1 and U4b2/U4c1/U5/U5a/U5a1a1/U5a1b/U5a1b1/U5a1b1f/U9a1/U9b1a frequency is in Dravidians: 2,04% in Middle Dravidian caste and 2,21% in Dravidian tribe and only 1,87% in upper Indo-European caste.

This could mean that there were very tight contacts between Iran and the upper caste Indians not only when Indo-Aryans arrived but ever since that happened.



supernord said...

Rob, It is worth recalling that in Maykop, too, there is a reservoir effect.

"Stable isotope values obtained for steppe Majkop bones (Shishlina et al. 2012b: Table 4) show that an aquatic component in the diet of this population is likely.
Due to the average value of the δ15N in Majkop human bone collagen human = 7), which is +14‰, we estimate that the reservoir effect can be up to several hundred years."

=====
CEREALS AS SOURCE OF FOOD IN RIGVEDA.
A.A. Семененко

He's not a scientist, but a freak. His work does not pass peer review, his findings found to be false and counterfeit. This paper was also not.

ak2014b said...

Going through Sam's "List of Steppe mtDNA Haplogroups".

India and Bangladesh. Below are counts of samples that match at or below the indicated steppe mtDNA Hg.
Uses Palanichamy et al 2015.


H2a1: 6
H5a1: 9 (David's blog entry refers to H5e1. Was H5a1 meant?)
H6a1: 3
H7b: 2
HV6: 7
U5a1a: 10
U5a1b: 24
U4a1: 7
U2e1a: 1
U2e1b: 10
T1a1: 15
J1b1a1: 16
J1c1b1a: 1
J2b1a: 1
W3a1: 28
W4: 16
W1c: 14
I4a: 1
N1a1a1a1: 4

0 matches for: H13a1a1, H41, HV9, U5a1d2b, U5a1g, U5a2a1, U5a2b, K1b1a1, K1b2, U4a2, U4b1a1a1, U4b1a4, U4b1b1, U2e1h, U2e2a1, W3b, I1a1, I3a

Total 175 steppe mtDNA matches / 14198 samples = 1.23%


There's again some instances of counter-intuitive distributions, and every Hg seems to have its own peculiar one rather than clining neatly in unison. But there's too many Hgs and too many population divisions for me to go listing the above by language, region and group affiliations.

In comments on an earlier Eurogenes entry, I brought up that all 4 instances of the exact Hg H2a1 only occur in samples marked as South India, Dravidian, Upper-Caste "Tamil Nadu", which may be a founder effect or inbreeding issue. H2a1 was found in an Armenia Chalcolithic individual who had Y Hg L1a-M27, which literature's described as a common Hg either among Dravidian speakers or in South India. So the H2a1 in this case may possibly have taken a route other than through the steppe. (The 2500 BCE Darra-i-Kur sample from Afghanistan was already H2a, but this may or may not be more relevant.) There's still a chance it arrived in south India via the steppe, but Hg H2a1 isn't itself exclusively a steppe Hg as it occurred in Chalcolithic Armenia where it was further found associated with a Y Hg that isn't steppe (L).

Sam's said "W3a1, W3b, W6, I1 are all very common where ever there is heavy CHG/Iran Neo ancestry."

If this is saying that W3a1 may possibly be from Iran Neolithic, does it mean W3a1 may have been present since some time in South and/or SC Asia? Wouldn't that make it hard to tell whether W3a1 arrived in those regions from the Bronze Age steppe or from Iran in the Neolithic? It does have one of those counter-intuitive distributions, one that Iran Neolithic may better explain.

Depending on the above then, steppe mtDNA Hgs in India and Bangladesh can lie anywhere between around 1.01% (143 samples match if W3a1 and H2a1 excluded) and 1.23%.

So there's now been about 10x to 15x increase for the region compared to the smaller subset of mtDNA Hgs associated with R1a-M417. (Or a 7x to 9x increase, if H5a1 had been the Hg David intended all along in place of H5e1.) I'm still not getting near 5%, but I'm basing the numbers on Palanichamy et al 2015 with the Hgs as they've resolved it. As they refer to the earlier Derenko 2013 paper of Iran mtDNA Hgs for constant comparison and attempts to identify exact Iranian matches with India and Bangladesh mtDNA, the resolution may be no worse than that paper and may perhaps be better in this 2015 paper as it's a couple of years later.

Any mistakes are unintentional as always. Anyone can try verifying the above, certainly ought to before attempting to describe me as "dishonest".

1.23% is far better, but I still find it underwhelming and assume a male invasion will better explain things. It's unclear to me how to interpret the drastic drop in frequencies of mtDNA Hgs associated with R1a-M417, which becomes around 0.14% when H1a5 is included instead of H1e5, but someone will probably come up with an explanation.

Rob said...

@ Supernord

"Rob, It is worth recalling that in Maykop, too, there is a reservoir effect."

Yes there is, and "After applying a reservoir effect correction, we suggest a revision of the interval for the Steppe Majkop population to 3800–3000 cal BC"

". I did not read any such statements from Shishlina, they are simply impossible -"

Well it means that you simply haven't read the paper. Its online
But I'm not a radiocarbon expert, so cant claim who/ what is more accurate. Eg I know Kirilova dated 4900-4200 BC.


"4300-3800 years is time Dereivka culture, but not Sredniy Stog. Existing Dereivka culture & Khvalynsk culture in one time is impossible."

Well that's a curious date for the Dereivka culture, when the most recent studies suggest later "Dereivka has been attributed to the Middle Eneolithic period
(3800/3700–3500/3400 BCE; Rassamakin, 1999: 127–129), with seven
new radiocarbon dates supporting this chronological attribution, placing
Dereivka between 3700 and 3530 BCE or 3950 and 3530 BCE
(Rassamakin & Kaiser, in press)."

Which is not coincident with Khvalynsk, but a later stage.
Indeed, 3800 BC is when Repin is thought to expand from Dnieper-Don further east, and Majkop to parts of the steppe, mostly toward the Don.


ak2014b said...

Pakistan mtDNA samples, out of N = 795. Taken from the 6 Pakistan papers listed above. I'm once again looking for samples that match or are under the given Hg.

All matches are in Pathans unless otherwise noted.

H2a1: 1
H13a1a1: 1 x H13a1a1d
U5a1b: 2 x "U5a1b(T16362C)"
U4a2: 2 of which 1 is U4a2a in Saraiki
U2e1h: 2
T1a1: 3 x T1a1'3 (putting this under T1a1 just in case. 1 match in Makrani)
J1b1a1: 6 of which 1 match in Makrani
W4: 2

0 samples matched for: H5a1, H6a1, H7b, H41, HV6, HV9, U5a1a, U5a1d2b, U5a1g, U5a2a1, U5a2b, K1b1a1, K1b2, U4a1, U4b1a1a1, U4b1a4 (No U4b), U4b1b1, U2e1a, U2e1b, U2e2a1, J1c1b1a, J2b1a, W3a1, W3b, W1c, I1a1, I3a, I4a, N1a1a1a1

The number of Pathan samples is much higher than for the other groups (495), as 3 of the 6 papers are devoted to them. That may however partially explain Pathans popping up more often or others not popping up as often.

19 matching instances out of 795 samples is a more respectable 2.39%. More than 6x times the matches I counted for the region's R1a-M417 associated mtDNA Hgs.

Considering Pathans by themselves, in case this can be extrapolated to Pathans in Afghanistan, that's 17 out of 495 samples = up to 3.23% steppe mtDNA.
The rest of the Pakistan samples are then 3/300 samples = upto 1% match.

Nirjhar007 said...


Supernord,
No. Anyone who has studied Rigveda , knows that paper speaks of what is the case . And given the country he is from ,he is lucky that his short paper even got published in that series, as he regarded as betrayer to his motherland their tbh .




Bogdan,

Who has given you the authority to speak in that tone?. Have you ever been to India or in the institutions?? If you have the guts or the credibily you should have already made contact to the scholars and you must know , that it is an international research , where no set of scientists holds any control .

ak2014b said...

Iran. Counts of all samples that match or are under the indicated mtDNA Hg.
N = 352 samples, from Derenko et al 2013.

The number after the slash takes into account paragroups at the same level as the Hg.


H2a1: 2/3. 2 x H2a1h (Persian, Qashgai), 1xH2a1* (Armenian)
H5a1: 0/1. 1 x H5a1* Persian
H6a1: 1. H6a1a* Gilak
H7b: 2 x H7b7 (Qashgai, Persian)
HV9: 1 Persian
U5a1a: 2 x U5a1a1* (Khalaj, Qashgai)
U5a1d2b: 1 Persian
U5a1g: 3/4 (2 x U5a1g1, 1 x U5a1g2, 1 x U5a1g*. 1 U5a1g1 in Persian, rest Qashgai)
U4a2: 2 x U4a2a (Persian, Qashgai)
U4b1a1a1: 1 Persian
U4b1a4: 1 Qashgai
U4b1b1: 0/1 (U4b1b1* Khorasani)
U2e1a: 2 (U2e1a1* in Persian, Qashgai)
T1a1: 2/4 (2 x T1a1b1 in Qashgai and Persian, 2 x T1a1* in Persians)
J1b1a1: 1 Qashgai
W1c: 2 x Persian

0 matches for: H13a1a1, H41, HV6, U5a1b, U5a2a1 (no U5a2), U5a2b, K1b1a1, K1b2, U4a1, U2e1b, U2e1h, U2e2a1, J1c1b1a, J2b1a, W3a1, W3b, W4, I1a1, I3a, I4a, N1a1a1a1

23 matches without paragroups, 29 with paragroups. Out of 352 samples, this ranges between 6.53% and 8.24% match with steppe mtDNA Hgs in Iran.

If wanting to treat the Turkic speaking Qashgai, Khalaj, Khorasani (and Azeri) separately, where N = 142 for Turkic speakers: 11 to 13 matches, which is 7.75% to 9.15% steppe mtDNA match among Turkic speakers in Iran.
In that case, N = 210 for Indo-European speakers (including Armenians) in the Iran paper: 12 to 16 matches = 5.71% to 7.62% steppe mtDNA match among Indo-European speakers in Iran.

Percentages in Iran are more reasonable. Can we take it as a certainty that none of those Hgs are from the Near or Middle-East and entered directly from there, but entered exclusively from the steppe? But for H2a1 at least, there's a reasonable possibility it could have entered Iran from Armenia at some point, as that Hg was already found Armenia in its Chalcolithic period.

supernord said...

Rob, "I know Kirilova dated 4900-4200 BC."

It is correct. Because diapason is
Khvalynsk-I АА-12571 5248–5052 cal BC
Khvalynsk-I УПИ-132 5220–4790 cal BC
Khvalynsk-I АА-12572 4962–4774 cal BC
Khvalynsk-II (kurgan 15/35) OxA-4310 5045–4846 cal BC
Khvalynsk-II (kurgan 21/18) OxA-4314 5025–4816 cal BC
Khvalynsk-II (kurgan 17/10) OxA-4311 4749–4544 cal BC
Khvalynsk-II (kurgan 18/24) OxA-4312 4786–4579 cal BC

"(3800/3700–3500/3400 BCE; Rassamakin, 1999:" Rassamakin is out of date, it's 20th century. Rassamakin is not use calibration dating. Raasamakin is not authority in this questions.



Acharya Agneya said...

Nirjhar,

do send me that study on the Indo-Iranian 'Vara'. Both the branches may have had two different Varas but it is still unique

Kristiina said...

@ak2014b

Yes, the picture is often more complex than expected. I noticed that N1a1a1a1 has been found in Pazyryk and in four ancient Hungarians and, moreover, in India this haplotype is mostly found in Muslims (3/4), so it is probably of Turkic origin. Similarly, K2a5 which has been identified in two South Indian Dravidians, has been detected in Iron Age Altai in a highly Siberian RISE600 with yDNA Q1a1b-M25, which means that this haplotype may be introduced in the Turkic era.

I cannot find any U2e1h in India in the Excel file. However, one of the most frequent U2e haplotypes in India is U2e1b which has been identified in ancient Avars and ancient Hungarians and possibly in the Bronze Age West Siberia.

ak2014b said...

@Alberto
I'm glad it was useful for you. I've since tried to include all of the steppe mtDNA Hgs that Sam identified in his blog. The new totals are in some comments above, including for Iran.


@Sam and @Kristiina

It doesn't appear to be quite as in Sam's statement "Almost half of the Indian mitogenomes sequenced by Palanichamy et al 2015 belong to Steppe and or European EEF haplogroups."

Firstly, out of 14198 samples from India and Bangladesh in the paper, only 1179 (or 8.3%) is West Eurasian. Those 1179 are the ones in the paper's full Table S1, since the paper's about West Eurasian mtDNA in that South Asia region. Of the 1179 West-Eurasian samples, not all are steppe or Anatolian Farmer, as a lot of it are other Hgs like U7.

But it's also not the case that 40% of specifically Punjab's mtDNA are all EEF or steppe. As per the full statement in Palanichamy et al 2015, that 40% figure for Punjab is all West Eurasian mtDNA in general, which includes West Asian:

"Interestingly, the overall proportion of west Eurasian haplogroups in India is found to be eightfold lower than in Europe (10 versus 85 %) (Kivisild et al. 1999a, 2003b; Quintana-Murci et al. 2004). Within India, the frequencies also vary widely in the various regions, for example, 40 % in the Punjab, 16 % in southern India and 7 % in eastern India (Metspalu et al. 2004)."

So some chunk of that is considered West Asian. I'm not going to work out how much, but I have worked out what chunk of the West Eurasian mtDNA in Punjab is steppe, further below.

However, that 40% figure is, as they cite, from Metspalu 2004. The Palanichamy 2015 paper's own samples do not appear to reach to 40% West Eurasian for Punjab (unless they forgot to label any as Punjab, in which case I'd be getting the following wrong).

There's 103 West-Eurasian mtDNA samples marked as Punjab in Palanichamy 2015's dataset, out of a total of 314 Punjab mtDNA samples that they worked with, which means almost 33% of Punjab's mtDNA is West Eurasian as per this paper's data. Of that, 21 are already U7 or downstream, so about 6.7% of Punjab's overall mtDNA is the non-steppe Hg U7, which thus constitutes a little over a fifth of Punjab's West Eurasian mtDNA. But the rest turn out to not be all from the steppe either. I'm comparing against Sam's fuller list of steppe mtDNA Hgs again in the following.


H5a1: 2
U5a1b: 6
J1b1a1: 2
W4: 6

The other steppe Hgs don't occur in the paper's Punjab samples.


Total steppe mtDNA in Punjab: 16 out of 314 Punjab samples = 5.1%.

From Sam's blog:
"India, Anatolian farmer mtDNA.
H3g, H5a1, HV6, V2a, J1c1b1a, J1c8a, J1c5, J1c8, K1a1b2a, K2a5, N1a1a1a1."


In the paper Palanichamy et al paper, I find 1 x J1c5 and 1 x J1c8 among the Punjab samples (both marked as Lower-Caste).

Total Anatolian Farmer mtDNA: 2 out of 314 samples = 0.64% of Punjab's mtDNA is AF and which further constitutes 2% of their West Eurasian mtDNA.

There's no overlap in the steppe and AF matches, so 18 out of 314 = 5.7% of Punjab mtDNA is from a combination of both Anatolian Farmer and Steppe mtDNA.

That's still a little less than U7 at 6.7% in Punjab, but U7 isn't the only West Asian mtDNA in that area.

The 5.7% of steppe and Anatolian Farmer combined in Punjab's total mtDNA, or even just the 5.1% steppe, is still higher than the figures for South Asia that I've seen so far today. I guess we're to assume the remainder of the nearly 33% West-Eurasian mtDNA in Punjab is West Asian?

ak2014b said...

@Kristiina

Thanks.

The possible Turkic connections are interesting. I've been tentatively contemplating N1a1a1a1 may be a Turkic (maybe particularly Moghul) introduction to India as well.

The Hungarian, Avar and Siberian angle you've brought up is interesting too. Are there any historical indications of contact between them and South Asia, or would it be mediated through Turkic-Mongolian groups for this?

aniasi said...

@ak2014b

The easiest Hungarian, Avar, and Siberian connection would be the Kushans or Hephthalites/Hunas. Of course, they may have arrived earlier as a smaller population underneath the Indo-Scythians.

Bronze said...

its funny how the people who are correct and know what they are talking about here (Nirjar, postneo, Jaydeep, Vara etc) are getting silenced by biased moderation from Davidsky (who is wrong about most about what he has said) and Shah, Bob, bogdan,and anthro survey (who are factually wrong about pretty much everything they have said here.

I suspect many of these losers have been cuckolded by some indian dudes in the past. Aryan invasion definitely did not happen. Possibly a migration but it seems from caucaus or central asia most likely, and these aryans/PIE where not white people and did not rememble modern europeans. Deal with it.

Simon_W said...

I actually wanted to write this comment on Sam's blog, but was blocked as a suspected bot. But I can write it here as well without getting off-topic, as the thread topic is mtDNAwiki on "steppe folk" mtDNA.

@ Sam

In which cultural context was that "Neolithic" K2b1a individual found? According to your map it's 5 kya, that makes 3000 BC, so it could be well from an Indo-European LNBA context.

On ancestraljourneys.org the oldest K2b I have seen is from the Corded Ware in Esperstedt (I1544), it's a K2b2. The next younger K2b individual is from the Andronovo culture 1800-1400 BC. Eupedia claims that K2b is correlated with yDNA R1a and is Indo-European.

supernord said...


Bronze said...

its funny how the people who are correct and know what they are talking about here (Nirjar, Jaydeep, Vara etc)


These people know nothing. The problem is that the aggressive propaganda of OIT are everywhere and they hang noodles on the ears. Each of their nonsense has been refuted many times, but because he denied them normal people, it is not aggressive. Propagandists further continue to promote and lie blind to the refutation. Again and again.

aniasi said...

"I suspect many of these losers have been cuckolded by some indian dudes in the past. Aryan invasion definitely did not happen. Possibly a migration but it seems from caucaus or central asia most likely, and these aryans/PIE where not white people and did not rememble modern europeans. Deal with it."

Now you're beginning to talk the way Shah does.

Ric Hern said...

@ Rob

What is interesting about that study is that they analysed soils under Kurgans and only commented on the timeperiod between 4300 and 2000 Cal BC.

Nowhere did I read that they claimed that the Khvalynsk Culture only started 4300 cal BC.only that they analysed the soil from 4300 cal BC onwards...

What is also interesting is that they mentioned that Khvalynsk was already a pastoralist culture and looking at the dates it looks like long before Maykop arrived. So there is that...

Alberto said...

@ak2014b and @Kristiina

Thanks to both for all the data you've provided. I understand that mtDNA is a but complicated and besides I'm really not much into it, so I'll simply thank everyone for the work and not make any judgement about it. The thread is bad enough as it is.

Let's wait for aDNA to tell us the truth and put an end to this. (But unfortunately it's not only Indian DNA that's delayed, it's all of it. Bronze Age Greece, Maykop, Kazakhstan, BMAC, etc, etc... No politics there, just academic's own pace and agendas. Politicians don't even know what's ancient DNA, nor do they care about prehistory, thankfully).

Alberto said...

(More over, not only India occupies the territory of the IVC. Pakistan does too, and apparently there are samples from there too that are surely not affected by any "Hindu nationalism". So worry not about politics, this is just important for us. No one else really cares).

Bronze said...

@supernord

Wrong. Those guys definitely know what they are talking about, and the main theories they are supporting have not been refuted at all.

its the other posters i mentioned, most notably Shahansha, who are completely wrong about everything. Its laughable to read what they write.

postneo said...

@ak, @kristina
"However, that 40% figure is, as they cite, from Metspalu 2004. The Palanichamy 2015 paper's own samples do not appear to reach to 40% West Eurasian for Punjab (unless they forgot to label any as Punjab, in which case I'd be getting the following wrong)."

perhaps the balance may be from the deep India specific clades of Paleolithic depth such as with u2.

supernord said...

Bronze said...

"@supernord

Wrong. Those guys definitely know what they are talking about, and the main theories they are supporting have not been refuted at all."

No, this is not true and a lie. When blank space starts to write nonsense, we immediately see that this is a Troll. It is tired the ignoramus.

Dave the Slothtopus said...

J2a1/J2a1a1 just sort of lurks from Spain to Hungary in the chalcolithic and spreads out amorphously through Europe after that? Except for the New Kingdom mummy with J2a1a1, that is?

Kristiina said...

@ak2014b
I have in mind the international trade on the Silk Road and the movement of people across Central Asia that it brings about.

According to Wikipedia, after the defeat of the Xiongnu, Chinese armies established themselves in Central Asia, initiating the Silk Route as a major avenue of international trade. The Silk Road essentially came into being from the 1st century BCE, following these efforts by China to consolidate a road to the Western world and INDIA. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silk_Road#/media/File:Silk_route.jpg)

The unification of Central Asia and Northern India within Kushan Empire in the 1st to 3rd centuries reinforced the role of the powerful merchants from Bactria and Taxila. In 568 the Byzantine ruler Justin II was greeted by a Sogdian embassy representing Istämi, ruler of the Turkic Khaganate, who formed an alliance with the Byzantines against Khosrow I of the Sasanian Empire that allowed the Byzantines to bypass the Sasanian merchants and trade directly with the Sogdians for purchasing Chinese silk.

While the Turks were settled in the Ordos region (former territory of the Xiongnu), the Tang government took on the military policy of dominating the central steppe. The Tang dynasty (along with Turkic allies) conquered and subdued Central Asia during the 640s and 650s.

The Sogdians dominated the East-West trade after the 4th century up to the 8th century. They were the main caravan merchants of Central Asia. Their commercial interests were protected by the resurgent military power of the Göktürks, whose empire has been described as "the joint enterprise of the Ashina clan and the Soghdians" A.V. Dybo noted that "according to historians, the main driving force of the Great Silk Road were not just Sogdians, but the carriers of a mixed Sogdian-Türkic culture that often came from mixed families.”

The Mongol expansion throughout the Asian continent from around 1207 to 1360 helped bring political stability and re-established the Silk Road (via Karakorum). It also brought an end to the dominance of the Islamic Caliphate over world trade. Because the Mongols came to control the trade routes, trade circulated throughout the region, though they never abandoned their nomadic lifestyle.

The Mongols conquered India and ruled the country for c. 200 years. The Mughal Empire was founded by Babur (reigned 1526–1530), a Central Asian ruler who was descended from the Turco-Mongol conqueror Timur (the founder of the Timurid Empire) on his father's side and from Chagatai, the second son of the Mongol ruler Genghis Khan, on his mother's side. Ousted from his ancestral domains in Central Asia, Babur turned to India to satisfy his ambitions. He established himself in Kabul and then pushed steadily southward into India from Afghanistan through the Khyber Pass.

With all this, I want to say that there was a trickle of West Eurasian mtDNA to India along the Silk Road for c. 2000 years. Of course, this affected mostly the upper classes and merchants.

Vara said...

@supernord

I said many times I do not support Out of India. You always accuse me of that after I lay an intellectual smackdown on you.

Where are your expert geologists that claim Uzboy dried 1500 BCE? The burial texts written by Zoroaster? The Araxes in Russia?

As dear Rob has shown you I didn't invent any dates. So you haven't refuted anything and you never will. All you do is beat around the bush.

Shahanshah of Persia said...

@Bronze

"its funny how the people who are correct and know what they are talking about here (Nirjar, postneo, Jaydeep, Vara etc) are getting silenced by biased moderation from Davidsky (who is wrong about most about what he has said) and Shah, Bob, bogdan,and anthro survey (who are factually wrong about pretty much everything they have said here."

What's funny is the delusions of your crew and fellow countrymen, such as the likes of Moorjani and Rajaram. You are a mongrel, and a mutt, and for this reason you are taking your anger out on us. Especially on myself and David. Why are you coming here and resorting to insulting us? It's because you don't have a valid argument. Aryans DID invade India, and there's absolutely nothing you can do about this fact. Don't act like there wasn't an Aryan invasion because there was. The only ones wrong about everything they've said are you and your crew, as well as Indian nationalists such as Rajaram.

"I suspect many of these losers have been cuckolded by some indian dudes in the past. Aryan invasion definitely did not happen. Possibly a migration but it seems from caucaus or central asia most likely, and these aryans/PIE where not white people and did not rememble modern europeans. Deal with it."

The only ones cuckolded are the Indian users here. In fact, there ancestors were cuvkolded by the Aryans thousands of years ago to such a degree that now they have a decent amount of Steppe ancestry. The Aryans penetrated your ancestors and you have no right to talk, let's just leave it at that.

"Wrong. Those guys definitely know what they are talking about, and the main theories they are supporting have not been refuted at all."

No! None of the guys you mentioned know what they're talking about.

"its the other posters i mentioned, most notably Shahansha, who are completely wrong about everything. Its laughable to read what they write."

The only ones confused here are the Indian nationalists.

@everyone Sorry if I said some offensive things here but you guys are a bit soft. This guy came here and insulted you, and most of you just took the insult. That's not how it should be, and I'm not going to stand idly while these idiots come here and start a shit show.



supernord said...

@Vara

You are disgusting. You his old ducks pass for facts. The fact that you know nothing, a complete profane, the layman, it's your problem. I only write the truth, you just not. And don't bring here the person is not confirmed you.

All would know that in archaeology there is a school (Safronov/Nikolaeva proponents of the South/Anatolian hypothesis) which denies the antiquity of Maykop, it gives to him the range 2800-2000 BC! Moreover, there is no indisputable ancient date for Maykop >3500 cal BC, all known ancient radiocarbon dates is controversial, a typical example of when one and the same sample in one laboratory obtained 3900 cal BC, 3500 cal BC in another, and the third 3100 cal BC. The Dating of Maykop the most controversial of all the dates.

Vara said...

@Kristiina

"With all this, I want to say that there was a trickle of West Eurasian mtDNA to India along the Silk Road for c. 2000 years. Of course, this affected mostly the upper classes and merchants."

According to some people here mtDNA only comes during the bronze age. 800 years of East Iranians to South Asia leaves no mtDNA behind.

Vara said...

@supernord

I do not see any geologists here. I suggest you help Shah with his Mantras Of Ice and Fire. Trust me you'll do an amazing job as an author of fantasy books. Atleast you'll have an excuse when you beat around the bush this time.


"(Safronov/Nikolaeva proponents of the South/Anatolian hypothesis)"

Nice a view from the 80's that is no longer accepted by anyone. Maykop is from Leyla Tepe not Syria or the Steppes.

supernord said...

@Vara

Do not write that I do not know. This is denied in our time and the problems with the dating of Maykop given for our time.

Samuel Andrews said...

@Simon_W,
"In which cultural context was that "Neolithic" K2b1a individual found? According to your map it's 5 kya, that makes 3000 BC, so it could be well from an Indo-European LNBA context."

It comes from a recent study which didn't get much attention in the blogosphere.

Fraser 2018
New insights on cultural dualism and population structure in the Middle Neolithic Funnel Beaker culture on the island of Gotland
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352409X17303231


Interested because you have K2b1a :). Two K2b1a(s) in Gotaland Funnel Beaker. Ones dates 3000-2890, the other 2870-2680. No suprise. K2b1a(s) modern distribution and age estimate indicates a Neolithic expansion.

K2b1a today is basically western European-exlusive. I don't even think I have one example from outside of Spain, France, and northwestern countries.

My mtDNA, U5b2a2b1, was found in Globular Amphora dating just a few hundred years before Corded Ware arrived. The vast majority of Europeans have Neolithic farmer mtDNA. Eventually, just about everyone's very specific mHG will pop up in farmers who lived right before the Steppe invasion.

Samuel Andrews said...

@ROb,

Notice in the haplogroup pages on my blog often Italy is mentioned as having typical Middle Eastern mHGs. Much of my conviction that Italy and southeastern Europe has recent Near Eastern, not only Turkey and Caucasus area, influence comes from mtDNA. Most of it comes from Turkey, like the stuff in Minoans, but not all of it.

I've not looked at R0a in detail. Just started. Already I see southwest Asian-specific R0a1a in Greece, Bosnia, Ukraine, Bulgaria, and Serbia. I'm pretty sure there is insignificant but real Levantie influence, which is part Natufian, in southeastern Europe.

Rob said...

@ Ric Hern

"Nowhere did I read that they claimed that the Khvalynsk Culture only started 4300 cal B"

Yes I know you're a battler, Ric. So despite apparently reading the article, you still failed to comprehend basic english. " After applying a reservoir effect correction for the steppe Eneolithic period, the time interval for the Caspian steppe Eneolithic population has now changed to 4300–3800 cal BC.""

"only that they analysed the soil from 4300 cal BC onwards..."

LOL No Ric. They did not only analyse dirt (For fossil bones, collagen was extracted using an improved version of the Longin method ...''



"What is also interesting is that they mentioned that Khvalynsk was already a pastoralist culture and looking at the dates it looks like long before Maykop arrived. So there is that.."

That's a moot point. Khvalynsk is part of the Sredny Stog horizon, and the earlier Caucasus - Meshoko phase, not Majkop. Learn some basics before engaging in polemics.
(What's funny is Epoch actually quoted you as a source recently)

Also, Khvalynsk were predominantly hunters still, with incipient non-mobile pastoralism.

Likewise, the trans-Caucasus and Volga River basin were home to hunting communities, subsumed under the “Khvalynsk” cultural typology, that supplemented their economies with domesticated animals to a small degree (Kuz’mina 1988). The limited use of domesticated animals(typically less than 10% of fauna) at sites such as Kyzl-khakII, Kurpezhe-molla, and Kara Khuduk I (3900–3700 cal BC)suggests a period of “auditioning” of new herding strategiesamong groups whose economy and regional ecology were stilllargely shaped by hunting during the fourth millennium BC(Barynkin 1998; Barynkin and Vasil’ev 1988)


@ Supernord

You seem at ease at picking and choosing what is right and what is wrong. Can you share your credentials with us ?

Rob said...

@ Sam

I have no doubt there'll be Natufian-related ancestry in SEE.
Have you come more accross H47?

Samuel Andrews said...

@Rob,
"I have no doubt there'll be Natufian-related ancestry in SEE. "

Oh dang we agree on something.

"Have you come more accross H47?"

I've got 15 H47(s) in my database. And yes it does show a geographic pattern.

Salden said...

"I suspect many of these losers have been cuckolded by some indian dudes in the past. Aryan invasion definitely did not happen. Possibly a migration but it seems from caucaus or central asia most likely, and these aryans/PIE where not white people and did not rememble modern europeans. Deal with it."

Tell us who Yamnaya and others like them cluster with. Did they look like a modern day inhabitant of South Asia or the Middle East too?

bmdriver said...

David, are you ready to Honor your pagan Vedic ancestors, by embracing the Vedas and rejecting the enemy, the pagan destroying, Christian crusaders?



....only highlights how stupid people are.

Davidski said...

@bmdriver

You're banned from this blog because you're acting like a total crackpot. The list of the banished is here, and as you can see, you're on it...

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2017/09/banned-commentators-list.html

Do not ever try to post here again.

Rob said...

@ Sam
I never disagreed with Natufian ancestry, after all it or something similar is a major component of ANF, which is prevalent throughout Europe, esp south. But i had issue with the term “recent”, which I’d take as Roman period and after; which perhaps apart from odd individuals (eg Anatolian Greeks, people with Roma ancestry) would be small for SEE mainland.

I’ll see if I can get my raw mtDNA data

Salden said...

Here's a reconstruction:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/2b/Yamna_culture.jpg

I don't know about Hindu Kangz here, but he doesn't look out of place in modern Russia.

Davidski said...

Please note that from now on, unless comments are strictly on topic in this thread, they won't appear here.

In other words, the only things that can be discussed here are mtDNAwiki, ancient steppe mtDNA and South Central Asian mtDNA.

No more comments about anything else concerning India and Indians, Out-of-India, and so on.

Simon_W said...

@ Sam

Thanks for the link, yeah seems to be Neolithic farmer then. My mtDNA is even K2b1a1 I've been told, because of the C16270T mutation. From what I've seen in the K project on FTDNA, K2b1a is indeed clearly northwest European centered, and so are the very rare K2b1a2 and K2b1a3. Only K2b1a1 has more of a central-northern distribution, but extended from Ireland, France and Gran Canaria to Finland, Poland and Ukraine.

Davidski said...

A few posts removed on second look. Guys, please stay strictly on topic here.

ak2014b said...

@Kristiina
"I have in mind the international trade on the Silk Road and the movement of people across Central Asia that it brings about."

Yes, of course, makes sense. I forgot about this additional possibility. Thanks.

Maybe some years from now, aDNA studies will help iron out details such as this.

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