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Sunday, June 28, 2015

R1b from Vučedol period Hungary


Via the Bell Beaker Blogger:

It is noteworthy that the R1b occurred first after the Middle Chalcolithic in Transdanubia. (Late Chalcolithic has not been not examined yet, and so a hiatus remains between the Middle Chalcolithic and the Early Bronze Age data.) The two R1b samples are dated to the Vučedol period (~2,870-2,580 cal BC) and to the Gáta/Wieslburg culture (~1,950- 1,760 cal BC). R1b is the most frequent haplogroup in today’s Europe, with a frequency peak in Western Europe (Balaresque et al., 2010). From prehistoric context, this haplogroup is known from the Late Neolithic Central Germany (Bell Beaker culture, Lee et al., 2012). The theory that R1b reached Central Europe (and possibly the Carpathian Basin as well) with the Bell Beaker migration, starting from southwestern Europe (Brandt et al., 2014) seems to be collapsing, as R1b (M269) has recently been found in Yamnaya (3,300-2,700 cal BC) population on the Russian steppe as well (Haak et al., 2015).

The other Vučedol period sample belongs to I2a2. Also worth noting is the J2 from the Late Neolithic Sopot/Lengyel remains.


Source: Szecsenyi-Nagy, Anna (2015) Molecular genetic investigation of the Neolithic population history in the western Carpathian Basin, Dissertation

47 comments:

Helgenes50 said...

This R1b makes me think of what Gimbutas has writen

The Impact on Western Europe:
The Bell Beaker Folk — Descendants of the Amalgamated Pit Grave and Vucedol Culture in the Middle Danube Basin — and Their Exodus to the West

Gioiello said...

"It can be inferred from the mitochondrial and Y-chromosomal ancient DNA data that at the advent of the Neolithic both farmer men and women, originated from the Near East, migrated into the Carpathian Basin". From the kurganists to Hammer the hammer again? We are waiting that R1b is found in aDNA in Middle East then. Anyway Yamnaya could come from Central Europe at this point and not the other way around. Where these presupposed R1b from Hungary came from we'll see next,

Colin Welling said...

~2,870-2,580 cal BC

this is the exact period that yamnaya graves start showing up in the carpathian basin which show isotopic evidence of migration from the east. It should be noted that pre yamnaya burials in the carpathian basin do not show isotopic evidence of migration.

Identifying kurgan graves in Eastern Hungary:
A burial mound in the light of strontium and oxygen isotope analysis


This is practically a smoking gun of yamnaya derived r1b

Colin Welling said...

Strontium and oxygen isotope analyses re- veal an earlier period of ‘local’ burials, spanning the period 3300–2900 BC, followed by burials that postdate 2900 BC that exhibit ‘nonlocal’ isotopic signatures. The combination of the isotope values and the grave goods associated with the non- local burials point to the foothills of the Carpathian Mountains as the nearest location representing a possible childhood ori- gin of this nonlocal group...

Probable is the connection between the Sárrétudvari nonlocals and the Transylvanian Livezile
group, which is chiefly distributed in the eastern belt of the Apuseni Mountains and shows simi- larities in burial tradition (Ciugudean, 1996, 1998). Both the isotopes and some of the burial ob- jects suggest that the Sárrétudvari nonlocals spent at least a part of their childhoods in a hillier re- gion, possibly the mountainous area southeast of the study site...

Some of our Early Bronze Age study sites in the Northern Pontic have yielded similar 87Sr/86Sr ra- tios and oxygen values. Therefore we cannot exclude a Northern Pontic place of origin for the Sár- rétudvari individuals. Furthermore, Northern Pontic individuals might have picked up the Transylv- anian isotopic signature or a mixed signature on their way to the Eastern Great Hungarian Plain.


The migrants only came into hungary, in the form of yamnaya burials, starting around 2900, and they came from the east!

Gioiello said...

Thus the samples are more recent than Yamnaya. It will interesting to see which subclade:
"It is noteworthy that the R1b occurred first after the Middle Chalcolithic in Transdanubia. (Late Chalcolithic has not been not examined yet, and so a hiatus remains between the Middle Chalcolithic and the Early Bronze Age data.) The two R1b samples are dated to the Vučedol period (~2,870-2,580 cal BC) and to the Gáta/Wieslburg culture (~1,950-1,760 cal BC). R1b is the most frequent haplogroup in today’s Europe, with a frequency peak in Western Europe (Balaresque et al., 2010). From prehistoric context, this haplogroup is known from the Late Neolithic Central Germany (Bell Beaker culture, Lee et al., 2012). The theory that R1b reached Central Europe (and possibly the Carpathian Basin as well) with the Bell Beaker migration, starting from southwestern Europe (Brandt et al., 2014) seems to be collapsing, as R1b (M269) has recently been found in Yamnaya (3,300-2,700 cal BC) population on the Russian steppe as well (Haak et al., 2015)".

Krefter said...

There's hardly any room for people to say the R1b in German/Czech Bell Beaker was not from East Europe. But of course some posters will stubbornly stick to the idea it expanded from the West. I simply don't understand. They're either ignorant of the evidence or don't want it to be true.

Colin Welling said...

I'm trying to find the exact context of the two r1b guys

Krefter said...

Table 10. This is the deepest classification they gave. They tested the same Y SNPs Haak 2010 did. The G2a* is usually G2a(xG2a2b), the I2 is usually I2(xI2a1, I2a2), the F* is usually H or T.

Everything is consistent with older data, except the two J2s.

Starčevo: G2a=1, G2a2b=2, F*=3, I2a1=1
Vinča: G2a=1
LBKT: G2a=1, I1=1
Sopot 5000-3400 BC: I2=1, I2a1=1, E1b1b1a1-M78=1, J2=1, C=1
Lengyel: G2a=3, F*=6, I2=1, E1b1b1a1-M78=1, J2=1, C=1
Balaton-Lasinja: F*=1, C=1
Bronze age: I2a2-M223=1, R1b=2

Colin Welling said...

but can you find the exact location and dating of the r1b burials?

Krefter said...

The raw mtDNA markers and Y SNP calls are in the Supp. Info towards the bottom of the PDF. mtDNA of Neolithic samples is identical to what we already have. One of the Hungarian R1bs was tested for M269 and is positive.

Krefter said...

@Colin,

It's in Table 1. of the Supp. Info.

The two R1b dudes:

M6-116.8 R1b(M343+): 2860-2620 BC
KON 6 R1b1a2(M343, M269+): 1920-1770 BC

rozenfag said...

Regarding R1b samples:

One of them denoted M6-116.8, found at Lánycsók, Csata-alja

Another denoted KON 6, found at M85 Enese elkerülő 02. Kóny, Proletár-dűlő II

Mike Thomas said...

Krefter,
Are those omsamomes listed in the table only the complete ones?
I think they used individual SNP testing rather than full sequences

rozenfag said...

M6-116.8, found at this place:

Lánycsók–Csata-Alja

The site was found in 2008, in the frame of a rescue excavation before constructing the motorway M6. On two hectares, 433 Starčevo, Balaton-Lasinja, Vučedol, Roman and Árpád Age archaeological features were unearthed by the Janus Pannonius Museum in Pécs (Vajda-Kiss, 2009). After radiocarbon dating of the supposed Starčevo specimens in CEZA laboratory in Mannheim, three burials
were surely assignable to the Starčevo period, and the rest is from the Balaton-Lasinja and from the Early Bronze Age Vučedol period
(see Supplementary Table 1).

Krefter said...

Also, of Interest. I couldn't find the dates of the other J2 and E1b1b1a1. None the less both are from pretty early parts of the Neolithic and probably carried by people of almost pure Neolithic Antolian blood.

VEJ4 E1b1b1a1(M78): 4780-4700 BC
ALE14 J2: 4990-4850 BC

Krefter said...

@Mike,

Yes, they did individual SNP tested. But they tested several upstream SNPs. I put their most downstream positives. Each haplogroup classification is concrete.

Mike Thomas said...

Sweet , thanks K.
What? EM-78?

Simon_W said...

Very interesting. The older R1b specimen (M6-116.8) is R1b-M343, is dated to 2860 - 2620 BC and is from Lanycsok, which according to wikipedia is in the very south of Hungary, close to the Croatian border. The archeological context thus would be Vucedol, as stated in the text.

The younger R1b specimen is R1b1a2-M269, is dated to roughly 1850 BC and is from Kony, which seems to be in western Hungary, close to the Austrian border, since according to the thesis it belongs to the Gata-Wieselburg culture.

Simon_W said...

I don't agree that M6-116.8 is the oldest R1b(xV88) west of the steppe. RISE1 from the Polish Corded Ware was dated to 2865 - 2578 BC, so they were coevals. They both share the title of "oldest R1b(xV88) west of the steppe". And interestingly, neither has a much derived variant of R1b.

But at last we've got R1b from the Carpathian basin, and good to know that Vucedol had it. I'm sure this R1b came from the Hungarian Yamnaya, so now we can say, they were not without R1b. But note that there is also another yDNA from Vucedol in the thesis, with the same age, and this one had I2a2-M223. So a complete predominance of R1b in Vucedol is not to be expected.

Simon_W said...

KON6, the Gata-Wieselburg R1b-M269 is of course of a much later date. And in fact the Gata-Wieselburg culture was situated in the same area where the eastern Bell Beakers had had their easternmost major settlement area, and some archeologists have considered that Bell Beaker people had participated in the formation of Gata-Wieselburg, which is also suggested by craniometric data. So it's likely that KON6 had Bell Beaker ancestors, which would mean that his R1b-M269 is rather derived from Bell Beaker than related to the origin of Bell Beakers.

Davidski said...

Yeah, true, the Corded Ware R1b might in fact be slightly older. But that sequence is so bad that it might well not be R1b.

Simon_W said...

But I think the Vucedol R1b now reshuffles the pack and the game about the origin of Bell Beaker R1b is open again.

Krefter said...

@Simon,
"And interestingly, neither has a much derived variant of R1b."

That's because they were not tested for downstream clades of R1b or R1b1.

Gioiello said...

@ Krefter
"There's hardly any room for people to say the R1b in German/Czech Bell Beaker was not from East Europe. But of course some posters will stubbornly stick to the idea it expanded from the West. I simply don't understand. They're either ignorant of the evidence or don't want it to be true".
Do you too think that this "is practically a smoking gun of Yamnaya derived R1b"?
If these are the data, I'fd wait for knowing their subclades.
M6-116.8 R1b(M343+): 2860-2620 BC
KON 6 R1b1a2(M343, M269+): 1920-1770 BC
Only the second is M269, and could be one of the diffused L23 in Eastern Europe (I remember to you that this is my haplogroup: R-Z2110* in Italy very likely from more than 6000 years and brother to the CTS7556 from which derived all the CTS9219 of Eastern Europe, young (not more tyhan 4500 years), in fact not found so far in the Eastern European aDNA. The first could be also an old R1b1 or something similar.
And what about the J2 (ALE14 J2: 4990-4850 BC), believed till yesterday expanded to Europe with the Phoenicians (but very likely J2 is in Tuscany from 13000 years, even though I think that its origin is Southward the Caucasus), and the E-M78 (VEJ4 E1b1b1a1(M78): 4780-4700 BC), perhaps the Balkan V13?, but the oldest clade seems present in Italy more than in the Balkans.
But what a surprise if the E-M78 were this:
E1b1b1a1aZ21150/FGC2148/Y6738 * Z1902/CTS10890/PF2292 * FGC2150/Y6737... 1 SNPs formed 13400 ybp, TMRCA 13400 ybp
E1b1b1a1a*
E1b1b1a1a2Z1227 * CTS2371 * CTS6386/PF2268... 56 SNPs
id:NA20544TSI
id:HG01377CLM

Mike Thomas said...

Gio

I don't think anyone believed J2 spread with Phoenicians apart from the authors which wrote that study..

Mike Thomas said...

Krefter,

But do these current samples overlap with those she used in her article last year ?

Gioiello said...

@ Mike Thomas
"Gio
I don't think anyone believed J2 spread with Phoenicians apart from the authors which wrote that study..."

A Greek J2 (from Pontos?) wrote tons of desperate letters to me so that I reassured him that his J2 came from Italy and not from Middle East!

Mike Thomas said...

Gio

Is there any haplogroup which doesn't come from Italy ?
:)

Gioiello said...

@ Mike Thomas
"Gio

Is there any haplogroup which doesn't come from Italy ?
:)"

Certainly yours!

P.S. But perhaps many didn't read my letters: I never said that all came from Italy, but that many hgs, believed come recently to Italy, perhaps were here from many thousands of years. I never said that R* was born in Italy, but perhaps there were many R1b1-L389* (highest variance all over the world) and many subclades. From the recent YFull tree I have always said that the expansion happened from Iberia, even though it is a little believable to me that R-U152 came from Iberia, where it is very rare, and not from Tyrrhenian Italy or Northwards. I am trying to understand case by case... but I don't believe that anyone should test with FTDNA for searching his Jewish roots, as I think having demonstrated that not only more than 90% of Jewish Ashk. mt-s came from Europe (I said that long before Costa et al.) but also the great part of the Y (even J and E).

Simon_W said...

The J2 in Sopot and Lengyel is also interesting. This is by far the earliest evidence of J2 found to date. This proves that J2 started to expand a long time before ANE-admixed West Asians did, and the two expansions are not completely correlated. Archeologically it has been observed before that Lengyel shows southeastern influence from Vinca.

Roy King said...

@Simon_W
Yes! The discovery of J2 and E-M78 in the context of the Late Neolithic Sopot-Lengyel culture is fantastic from my perspective, since I've long sought for a relationship between J2 and Neolithic SE Europe. Since Sopot-Lengyel is a later Neolithic (influenced perhaps by Vinca), it may reflect a later movement of J2 from Anatolia to the Balkans. One also wonders whether M78 (likely V13) concurrently moves into the region.
Great dissertation!

Krefter said...

I've put all the new Y DNA from this study into my Ancient Y DNA spreadsheet. It's incredible there are now 92 Y DNA samples from Neolithic Europe. All are G2a, I2, F*(H, T?), H, T, E1b-M78, I1, J2, R(xR1b-L51, R1a1a), and R1b1c.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12G2cfjG0wHWarsl5bB99ridFmvUWzqlZfZ6_e_R6oIA/edit#gid=1740513758

I can't find the exact location of all the new samples or their cultural affiliation.

Dude ManBro said...

Are there currently any theories on the origin and/or spread of Y-DNA I2a2? It has been found in Megalithic Spain, Yamnaya remains, as well as Late Neolithic and Bronze Age remains from Hungary.

It seems to have a wide range across Europe with the oldest samples being from Western Europe, as far as I can tell.

Mike Thomas said...

Dudester
The oldest sample is from Neolithic hungary and neolithic Spain, and several later sites.
Today, it's os widespread but not very common from Western Europe to russia .
So cannot tell without a nice package of mesolithic and palaeolithic samples

Dude ManBro said...

That's what I was afraid of, Mike. Several samples, but across too wide of an area and time span for any theory to carry weight at this point.

Mike Thomas said...

im not sure when, but i do know more data is on the way... We'll know by the end of the year a fairly clear history of I2a2.

Grey said...

Dude Manbro

"Are there currently any theories on the origin and/or spread of Y-DNA I2a2?"

My pet theory (based on almost nothing) is they are paleolithic mountain HGs who occasionally got attached to and carried along by other migrating groups like rocks in a glacier.



Chad Rohlfsen said...

http://www.academia.edu/4975314/CONSTANT_VARIABLE_AND_RANDOM_NETWORKS_A_BRONZE_AGE_BEGINNING

Alberto said...

@Grey

"My pet theory (based on almost nothing)..."

I found one of those jewels from Wikipedia related to the Vucedol culture and these R1b findings there that I think you'll find interesting (to add to your pet theories about R1b and copper workers). I don't know if whoever wrote it pulled it out of his rear (no link to any source), but here it is:

The community chief was the shaman-smith, possessing the arcane knowledge of avoiding poisonous arsenic gas which is connected to the technology of coppersmithing as well as understanding the year cycle. Still, the whole life of shaman-smith could not pass without biological consequences: slow loss of body movement coordination, and at the same time, stronger sexual potency. "That is why", according to Aleksandar Durman, "all eneolithic, or later gods of metallurgy are identified with fertility, and also why all gods in almost all early cultures - limp."

From:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vu%C4%8Dedol_culture

Grey said...

@Alberto

Quite. Not concrete evidence in itself but when you have a collection of not-quite-evidence it becomes worth a "what if?" or two.

Tobus said...

@Alberto,

Probably comes from this book: https://books.google.com.au/books/about/The_lame_God_of_Vu%C4%8Dedol.html?id=YgaVAAAACAAJ&hl=en

He has ideas about stars as well: http://arheologija.ff.uni-lj.si/documenta/pdf28/28durman.pdf
.. and it looks like he was involved in the radiocarbon dating of the site: https://journals.uair.arizona.edu/index.php/radiocarbon/article/view/1232/1237

Vincent said...

@Roy King

Let's not forget about the Avellaner V13 from 7000 years ago (that is, contemporary with Sopot/Lengyel V13). And also let's not forget about L618 and CTS1975, grandfather and father of V13, respectively, found only in Europe. As I suggested elsewhere, Mesolithic Greek mtDNA is totally different from mtDNA in other Mesolithic European groups, so I think that V13 expanded and its ancestors expanded from Mesolithic Greece when Neolithic farmers from Anatolia absorbed.

Mike Thomas said...

@ Vince

"And also let's not forget about L618 and CTS1975"

Where ? Whats the source, bud ?

Gioiello said...

@ Mike Thomas

I don't know if Vincent will answer you, but I can say that in the Sardinian pool of Francalacci 2015 there is 1 E-L618*...I studied that case, but didn't publish anything so far.

Mike Thomas said...

Thanks Gio.

Vincent said...

@Mike Thomas

Gioiello is right, but there are also other cases in other parts of Europe. See here http://www.haplozone.net/e3b/project/cluster/80

Serbian Irish said...

Recent discoveries in Montenegro point to the possibility that Beaker culture spread by sea from Montenegro via Spain to Ireland bypassing the continental Europe and bringing part of the R1b to the the western Europe that way.

I am writing a series of articles about the late copper age and early bronze age dolmen tumuluses from Montenegro and artifacts found in them. You can find the articles here:

http://oldeuropeanculture.blogspot.com/2015/07/bjelopavlici-tumulus.html
http://oldeuropeanculture.blogspot.com/2015/07/or-irelands-gold.html
http://oldeuropeanculture.blogspot.com/2015/07/mogila-na-rake.html

I am preparing several more articles about this toppic